Malaysian Opposition leader denies inciting protesters
Updated 1 May 2012, 14:37 AEST
The video shows Anwar Ibrahim smiling with yellow-shirted Bersih protesters a few metres from the barricades marking the out-of-bounds Merdeka Square and making a rolling gesture with his hands.
Two men give a thumbs up gesture to Mr Anwar, appearing to be asking his permission to breach the barrier and moments later they do.
Anwar Ibrahim has denied the accusation, saying he was merely signalling to his party's deputy president to "negotiate" with police, saying "nego, nego". However the crowd responds by shouting "masuk, masuk", meaning enter.
Presenter: Liam Cochrane
Speaker: Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Opposition leader
ANWAR: No, let me put it in perspective. You cannot ignore the fact that 300,000 Malaysians of all ethnic groups came out in protest against a corrupt government involved in fraud in the elections, that is a central issue. Second, the demonstrations, the rallies had been peaceful from morning right through 3pm, 3.30pm. What was the decision? The decision was to assemble, sit down at the Merdeka Square.
Now then what happened was when we encouraged the participants to move to the right away from the Merdeka Square, they were there. They said look, we are here, to sit and wait here.
Now I then asked them - the one or two leaders of Pakatan Rakyat and the Justice Party to start negotiating what signal. How do you read?
I would have just said remove to the Dataran Merdeka.I see what the state craft of all authoritarian regimes known throughout history is to condemn the innocent victims as the villians, beat them up and then use the ministry government controlled media to justify these excesses.
Those hundreds that were beaten were not at the vicinity of those who actually transgressed the small barricades. Those hundreds who were beaten were miles away, across the streets of Kuala Lumpur, they was beaten and assaulted.
COCHRANE: Those beatings took place though once the barricades were breached, that happened while you were standing right there and a video posted online shows you in the midst of a crowd, the crowd is chanting "go in" "go in", or enter enter, and you don't appear to doing anything to stop them. Why didn't you try and stop them?
ANWAR: Please look at the video perspective. I said turn to the right, pusing kanan, right is away from the Dataran Merdeka. That's clear, don't just go the the post where then they went to (indistinct) then I sat down, I made the signal, make sure your start negotiating with the police officers.
COCHRANE: Do you think that signal was understood by the crowd around you?
ANWAR: Well, how do I communicate with 300,000 people? The small megaphone works just for people immediately around me
COCHRANE: You were communicating with some men who were just a few metres away, after you made that rolling hand gesture to them, pointing towards the barricades, at least to...
ANWAR: Not, to them. I was communicating with the deputy person in the party, to say communicate because there was growing tension. People were moving, I could see them, towards the end, to the other corner. They were already moving to the barricade. The police didn't do anything to stop them.
So I was just making this gesture, look, quickly, negotiate with the police, give them some space.
What is the criminal offence of going through a city down to the Merdeka Square? Where in the world is the Merdeka Square a banned area?
That's why I said, once I had encouraged people to move away, I would defend the right of the demonstrators to go in and sit at the Merdeka Square.
If the police had been responsible enough, I may disagree with them, they arrest those at the Merdeka Square. What they did was, to use that as a pretext and beat everybody up and we want to deflect the entire issue of this growing sentiment of Malaysians against injustice and corruption just because people broke through, the illegal assembly around Merdeka Square, Independence Square.
This is a classic tactic of these (indistinct) What you hear, what your read in the newspapers and the Malaysian media, not a word of the position taken by Bersih leaders or Opposition leaders.
COCHRANE: And Anwar Ibrahim we've been covering this and we've been covering in-depth the demands from the Bersih demonstrators and we've been looking at many aspects of this and in this case we're looking at your role at the barriers. I'd like to ask you, I mean, are you, the rally was supposed to be a non-partisan event, that's what the Bersih organisers called for. Are you confident your presence there and your conduct there was non-partisan
ANWAR: The rally called the non-partisan calling for free, fair elections which was condemned by the ruling party from the word go.The Bersih rally decided by the Bersih leaders that time at their discretion was, and make it very clear in all campaigns throughout all the country , we are going to be marching toward merdeka Square and sit there from 2 to 4. all the participants were well aware of that.
We in the Opposition said we will support that decision. The ruling party said they would oppose the decision.
So I mean what partisanship is that? Our position, the common position in the Bersih rally was to call for free and fair elections against the fraud, corruption
COCHRANE: I think above all, that message was recieved, and that message had been going out at least in the international media. We spoke earlier to one of the steering committee members for the Bersih rallies and she says she wants the police to investigate just how the breaching of the barricades took place. Do you have confidence that the police can carry out a thorough investigation of what happened there?
ANWAR: If our call for an election commission under the commission cannot be trusted, how do you get the police to investigate where the excesses by and large are by the police. That is why I did support the call by some to set up an independent commission or a royal commission of inquiry, both the DAP leaders by the chief minister of Penang and also Islam party leaders have called for an independent commission
COCHRANE: Just finally do you think that the...
ANWAR: The issue is the brutalities and the excesses because the barricade is just transgressing a local council by-law
COCHRANE: Certainly. The issue of the violence, the police violence against protesters, do you think that will deter people from protesting in the future or do you think it will harden their resolve
ANWAR: Well he have seen this from '98, during the reformasi, we have seen in the last Bersih rally, people were beaten up and teargassed throughout the city and yet last year people estimated about 50,000. Now we're taking abut 300,000. I mean, you can't cow people into submission by your atrocities
The call is for justice and fair elections and I have seen this growing mood. In fact after the rally, last night, and even yesterday night in some of the, our, party rallies, there is youth stormed up to me and, you know, demanded explanation why were we not encouraging people to go to Merdeka Square where we did promise them.
I said look, let them investigate, the issue now is police brutality. It's important. This is the power of enormity, I said. You know, people came in with a single mission, going to Merdeka Square to state their stand. It's beyond individual, beyond Anwar, or Bersih leaders or Opposition leaders.
The country demands this change and this is what we need to appreciate and I think the Najib administration is in complete disconnect with its stark realities of the demand. They think that we are obsolete, we are not ready for democracy
Remember we brought a team including Senator Xenophon, and what did the secretary general of UMNO say? Malaysians are not ready for democracy and freedom, we don't want riots like in Indonesia. That is the thinking of the ruling elite in this country.
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